Decline - WRPGs have hit rock bottom (2024)

Ash said:

Saint_Proverbius said:

I honestly don't care for the clairvoyant quest compass thing, but putting a dot on the in-game map wouldn't be out of the question particularly when a lot of games have the NPC tell you, "Let me mark it on your map." Hell, Fallout did this in 1997, so I don't know why Bethesda couldn't have done this in a game released 5 years later. No one ever bitches about them doing it in Fallout, so why would you think a nice dot on the in-game map in Morrowind would raise hackles?

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Anyway, the dot, It would be a form of decline, but not enough to start crying about. There'd be that one dude bitching on an old janky early 2000s forum and many would probably laugh at him and call him a nerd and to shut up and look at the pretty Half-Life 2 graphics promo even though he is completely right. I might even be that nerd actually (not that I was on forums in 2003) the orienteering goes a long way for me in Morrowind when the core balance is completely retarded past a point and the content starts to repeat. I have still never beat the game even with over a hundred mods. It isn't worthy of that time investment. But the first 20-30 hours is one of the most wonderful RPG experiences out there.

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Dot on map would be incline if it doesn't tell you where you currently are. So you would still have to navigate and watch the world not the map. It's when you have both you're just playing the map not the world.

Ash said:

Wut. You seriously think objective markers vs none is a matter of "immersion" and that's it? No difference in gameplay? Jesus I already had you filed under halfwit, may have to be downgraded to quarter.

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What's the practical difference between a quest giver giving you an extremely detailed explanation of where to go, vs just having a meta element tell you exactly where to go. There is none. One is a lot more immersive however and makes the game world feel more cohesive.

If NPCs gave you very vague directions that obligated the player to thoroughly explore an area, that would be different. The quest directions in Morrowind are equivalent to asking for directions as a tourist in a city, and having a local give you extremely detailed directions on what streets to follow, as well as marking down local landmarks on a map you have in a brochure.

I like the lack of quest compass/map markers in Morrowind because it's immersive, but you're just sniffing your own farts if you think it changes anything from a practical gameplay perspective.

HappyDaddyWow! said:

Ash said:

Wut. You seriously think objective markers vs none is a matter of "immersion" and that's it? No difference in gameplay? Jesus I already had you filed under halfwit, may have to be downgraded to quarter.

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What's the practical difference between a quest giver giving you an extremely detailed explanation of where to go, vs just having a meta element tell you exactly where to go. There is none. One is a lot more immersive however and makes the game world feel more cohesive.

If NPCs gave you very vague directions that obligated the player to thoroughly explore an area, that would be different. The quest directions in Morrowind are equivalent to asking for directions as a tourist in a city, and having a local give you extremely detailed directions on what streets to follow, as well as marking down local landmarks on a map you have in a brochure.

I like the lack of quest compass/map markers in Morrowind because it's immersive, but you're just sniffing your own farts if you think it changes anything from a practical gameplay perspective.

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One system requires you to read, parse the information, then pay attention to the environment to look for the landmarks that were described to you.

The other system requires you to line up the quest marker with the middle of your compass and press the W key.

HappyDaddyWow! said:

Ash said:

Wut. You seriously think objective markers vs none is a matter of "immersion" and that's it? No difference in gameplay? Jesus I already had you filed under halfwit, may have to be downgraded to quarter.

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What's the practical difference between a quest giver giving you an extremely detailed explanation of where to go, vs just having a meta element tell you exactly where to go. There is none. One is a lot more immersive however and makes the game world feel more cohesive.

If NPCs gave you very vague directions that obligated the player to thoroughly explore an area, that would be different. The quest directions in Morrowind are equivalent to asking for directions as a tourist in a city, and having a local give you extremely detailed directions on what streets to follow, as well as marking down local landmarks on a map you have in a brochure.

I like the lack of quest compass/map markers in Morrowind because it's immersive, but you're just sniffing your own farts if you think it changes anything from a practical gameplay perspective.

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Come on bro. It was literally just detailed at great length by more than one poster the relevance in regards to gameplay, and there is more nuance to it than that too. I will play nice because you're a happy daddy so I am happy for you (sincerely), but the own farts-sniffer is you.

Butter said:

parse the information

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BTW, this part here is the real filter for sub-90 IQs. If I text somebody these directions:

"Turn left at the stop sign.
Go straight for 3 blocks, then turn right.
Turn right again after the post office.
Look for the grey building with a yellow door."

An intelligent person can create a mental map and follow that to the destination. Maybe he has to stop and reread the text or double back once. The dunce will be confounded and ask me to come pick him up.

Butter said:

HappyDaddyWow! said:

Ash said:

Wut. You seriously think objective markers vs none is a matter of "immersion" and that's it? No difference in gameplay? Jesus I already had you filed under halfwit, may have to be downgraded to quarter.

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What's the practical difference between a quest giver giving you an extremely detailed explanation of where to go, vs just having a meta element tell you exactly where to go. There is none. One is a lot more immersive however and makes the game world feel more cohesive.

If NPCs gave you very vague directions that obligated the player to thoroughly explore an area, that would be different. The quest directions in Morrowind are equivalent to asking for directions as a tourist in a city, and having a local give you extremely detailed directions on what streets to follow, as well as marking down local landmarks on a map you have in a brochure.

I like the lack of quest compass/map markers in Morrowind because it's immersive, but you're just sniffing your own farts if you think it changes anything from a practical gameplay perspective.

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One system requires you to read, parse the information, then pay attention to the environment to look for the landmarks that were described to you.

The other system requires you to line up the quest marker with the middle of your compass and press the W key.

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one requires a modicum more effort but there's not really any major gameplay difference. You still know exactly where to go and how to find what you're looking for. One system just requires less effort.

We can sit here and swish our wine and pontificate about how modern gamers just aren't hardcore enough for our enlightened, elite oldskool gamer sensibilities - but the truth is, there's really not that much of a difference. Having a quest GPS system is immersion breaking and sucks for that reason, but it's not like it dramatically changes how the game is played.

HappyDaddyWow! said:

What's the practical difference between a quest giver giving you an extremely detailed explanation of where to go, vs just having a meta element tell you exactly where to go. There is none. One is a lot more immersive however and makes the game world feel more cohesive.

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The meta element is not just less immersive, it's also less interesting to follow.

A dot on the map is just a dot on a map. You look at your map and go where the dot is. You don't actually have to look at your surroundings. You don't have to read and understand a line of text (it may sound trivial, but reading comprehension is a skill beyond many people nowadays). You just go to dot.

If you don't understand the difference between "Leave the city by the northern gate, follow the road until you see a crooked dead tree, turn right and walk forward until you reach the foot of the mountain, where you'll find the entrance to the cave." and just placing a dot on a map, I honestly can't help you.

HappyDaddyWow! said:

- but the truth is

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Not the truth, you're just not thinking.

Truth is the burden I carry around here. That fart I will sniff!

JarlFrank said:

HappyDaddyWow! said:

What's the practical difference between a quest giver giving you an extremely detailed explanation of where to go, vs just having a meta element tell you exactly where to go. There is none. One is a lot more immersive however and makes the game world feel more cohesive.

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The meta element is not just less immersive, it's also less interesting to follow.

A dot on the map is just a dot on a map. You look at your map and go where the dot is. You don't actually have to look at your surroundings. You don't have to read and understand a line of text (it may sound trivial, but reading comprehension is a skill beyond many people nowadays). You just go to dot.

If you don't understand the difference between "Leave the city by the northern gate, follow the road until you see a crooked dead tree, turn right and walk forward until you reach the foot of the mountain, where you'll find the entrance to the cave." and just placing a dot on a map, I honestly can't help you.

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Yeah sorry guys I'm just not seeing it. I don't think it's a herculean, 3000iq task to follow a river and then turn left at a big rock. I don't think this is filtering out normie plebs either. As someone who grew up playing these games its honestly not even something I really considered beyond "it's cool that the game is making me feel like I'm actually new to this game world".

HappyDaddyWow! said:

If NPCs gave you very vague directions that obligated the player to thoroughly explore an area, that would be different.

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There are quests that do that, actually.

Seriously, sometimes I question whether the people in this thread actually played Morrowind.

There are quests that give you detailed directions.
There are quests that place a marker on your map.
There are quests that give you vague directions.
All three types exist in the game.

The Imperial Cult has a bunch of quests that send you to hunt down artifacts based on visions of the local priestess. You get very vague descriptions, which you can get some more info on by talking to local scouts. Example:

Oracle Lalatia Varian had a vision of the Ring in Darkness. She saw the Ring of the Wind, a legendary treasure of Elsweyr. "I have seen the wind upon a dark elf's hand. I have seen fire gleam upon a Dwarf's face. I have seen darkness on a ring of water. I have heard no name whispered in the mouth of stone." The Oracle bid me retrieve the Ring in Darkness. I must ask Dark Elven savants and scouts about the meaning of the Oracle's vision.

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A Dunmer scout told me that Nammu, or 'no-name,' is a cavern in the wildlands of Sunna Guradan, somewhat west of the tower of Tel Aruhn. In the cavern is a great high chamber, flooded, with a central spire rising from the water. The water around the bottom of the spire might be the ring of water in darkness from the Oracle's vision.

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When Bethestards left Doc Mitchels house in New Vegas for the first time they proceeded to walk in a straight line in one direction, walked straight past the "WARNING: DEATHCLAWS AHEAD" signage and then proceeded to get instant killed by the Deathclaws. Either that, or they got frustrated from futile attempts at jump-glitching over the rocky hills between Goodsprings and New Vegas. They then claimed it was a sh*t game and went back to praising Fallout 3's design.

Gamers these days have been conditioned into non-thinking entities. They expect to be able to walk aimlessly in any direction at a whim and get rewarded for it. That's what an RPG is now. And when compass markers were introduced in Oblivion the pandora's box was opened. There's no going back.

HappyDaddyWow! said:

One system just requires less effort.

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And this is why that system is objectively inferior.

JarlFrank said:

Seriously, sometimes I question whether the people in this thread actually played Morrowind.

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I encounter this phenomenon ALL the damn time. To some people, games are just immersive hiking sims, or interactive stories, that somehow they just manage to auto-pilot through. a strong case that in general, games are far too easy even classic "hardcore" ones, because they're clearly not forcing any of the same thinking out of such players.

Final Fantasy is one such game. Some games in the series than others, but they can be filled to the brim with gameplay content and ambition and yet to so many they are a mere story or a dumbed down combatfa*g RPG. Actually not the reality, for example they too have navigation challenge to a notable degree...less hardcore than MW though, well, maybe not in the case of the first game that sh*t is some serious navigation tests, but this is the cRPG forum so yes, no more of such talk! kid game for kids.

A rare modern gem that shows why video games are the best form of art and entertainment this species will ever produce.

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Eh, I disagree. Give me a good musical composition any day over a game. I can listen to music anywhere, pump iron to it, work to it, anything really. Trumps painting which is a close second where you can stare at it and let the mind conjure up anything. Third would be a book and then games. Though, I might chuck cinema over that. And sometimes, I like physical games over video/computer games.

Best for of art.... that is entirely an opinion on a personal level not a hard fact.

KeighnMcDeath said:

A rare modern gem that shows why video games are the best form of art and entertainment this species will ever produce.

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Eh, I disagree. Give me a good musical composition any day over a game. I can listen to music anywhere, pump iron to it, work to it, anything really. Trumps painting which is a close second where you can stare at it and let the mind conjure up anything. Third would be a book and then games. Though, I might chuck cinema over that. And sometimes, I like physical games over video/computer games.

Best for of art.... that is entirely an opinion on a personal level not a hard fact.

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You do realize video games contain music right, and that the meaning of the music is multiplied when it is attached to a story, interactive experience, particular setting and experience? For you to not realize this, well I don't want to know what sh*t games you have been playing. I am a big music lover too (well, who isn't?), but it has more meaning when it is accompanied with something grand. The two become one. Or five components in this case. the fact that video games draw in the talents & makeup of many of the other arts and makes it all interactive and a working new whole is precisely what makes video games next level.

Fetish? No! Phobic more likely. I saw so many weird fat beyond fat at walmart on Tuesday it warped reality. There was literally a dude? Chick? Thing? That looked like a blob, stacked offset on another blob moving. Another looked like a giant orange gasping. Another was in a tacobell (in the store) that took like 1/3 of the place. And another was in a cart with some dancing fat fairy f*cknut dancing in a dress. GOD I HATE TOWN! I'm glad i can barely afford food (well, beans, peas, some vegetables, meat is like too f*cking expensive and junk food is an utter waste).

I can think of some real sour grapes for music that rightly makes my ears bleed.

That needs to be romhacked right out. BLECK!

Tuco Benedicto Pacifico said:

genuinely retarded.

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Tuco Benedicto Pacifico said:

dangerously unhinged.

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Eh, six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Tuco Benedicto Pacifico said:

Or at very least dangerously unhinged.

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Codex in a nutshell.

Nifft Batuff said:

Combatfa*gs that tend to skip the dialogs are lost without a quest-compass that points them where to go next.

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This is why I've always been a proponent of quest markers in Bethesda games particularly. Anything that cuts down on time spent with their writing and four voice actors is a Godsend.

Silverfish said:

Anything that cuts down on time spent with their writing and four voice actors is a Godsend.

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So Uninstall.exe didn't help then?